OtherGround Forums OG doc. AMA on COVID-19

6/2/20 8:22 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 27297

hi mataleo1, i have a question: what's your opinion about HEPA filter machines, or do you have one, when it comes to helping deal with the virus?

 

I got into a debate with the MD where i work. He seems to think that that because covid isn't airborne (and is water droplet based) that it's worthless and uneeded.

 

my viewpoint (and the HEPA machine company viewpoints) is that HEPA filters were capable of filtering waterdroplets up to .3 microns and lower, they would help with filtering a room.

 

my argument is that the filters DO filter waterdroplets and viruses contained (to a certain size) and his argument is that they don't filter water droplets.  I think i'm right but am i missing anything or do you have any thoughts?  thanks. 

6/2/20 4:39 PM
11/24/09
Posts: 2419

well i guess social distancing is out the window 

 

time to see how bad the virus really is after all these mass gatherings 

6/3/20 9:35 AM
10/23/05
Posts: 3799
Tomato Can - 
akbar87 - 

hard to see the good news stories with all the bad going on but this sounds great 

 

ROME (REUTERS) - THE new coronavirus is losing its potency and has become much less lethal, a senior Italian doctor said on Sunday.

"In reality, the virus clinically no longer exists in Italy," said Alberto Zangrillo, the head of the San Raffaele Hospital in Milan in the northern region of Lombardy, which has borne the brunt of Italy's coronavirus contagion.

"The swabs that were performed over the last 10 days showed a viral load in quantitative terms that was absolutely infinitesimal compared to the ones carried out a month or two months ago," he told RAI television.

Italy has the third highest death toll in the world from COVID-19, with 33,415 people dying since the outbreak came to light on Feb. 21. It has the sixth highest global tally of cases at 233,019.

However new infections and fatalities have fallen steadily in May and the country is unwinding some of the most rigid lockdown restrictions introduced anywhere on the continent.

Zangrillo said some experts were too alarmist about the prospect of a second wave of infections and politicians needed to take into account the new reality.


Agreed, read this a few hours ago and it does sound very hopeful. Although Italy also did ultra-hardcore lockdowns for a while there so they may have stomped down the viral load more significantly than we have. Hopefully not.

That is some good news. This is also being observed in North America. Might be the warmer weather. Hopefully this is sustained.

6/3/20 9:43 AM
10/23/05
Posts: 3800
yusul - 

hi mataleo1, i have a question: what's your opinion about HEPA filter machines, or do you have one, when it comes to helping deal with the virus?

 

I got into a debate with the MD where i work. He seems to think that that because covid isn't airborne (and is water droplet based) that it's worthless and uneeded.

 

my viewpoint (and the HEPA machine company viewpoints) is that HEPA filters were capable of filtering waterdroplets up to .3 microns and lower, they would help with filtering a room.

 

my argument is that the filters DO filter waterdroplets and viruses contained (to a certain size) and his argument is that they don't filter water droplets.  I think i'm right but am i missing anything or do you have any thoughts?  thanks. 


That's a really good question and I'm not sure to have a good answer.

What we know:
-The COVID virus is about 0.125 Micron
-It is mostly transmitted through droplets
-However, there is also good evidence that aerosol transmission can also occur. Aerosol size is about 0.5-2 Micron.
-HEPA filters will block particles as small as 0.5 Micron (some will go down to 0.1).

So, yes, I' guessing it should have some efficacy, but someone with an engineering degree might say differently.

I don't have one :)

6/3/20 9:44 AM
10/23/05
Posts: 3801
akbar87 - 

well i guess social distancing is out the window 

 

time to see how bad the virus really is after all these mass gatherings 


Right.

Although transmission in open spaces (compared to closed ones) is probably a minor factor.

6/3/20 11:27 AM
2/4/09
Posts: 12104

Thoughts?

 

6/3/20 11:43 AM
10/15/13
Posts: 37169
mataleo1 -
akbar87 - 

well i guess social distancing is out the window 

 

time to see how bad the virus really is after all these mass gatherings 


Right.

Although transmission in open spaces (compared to closed ones) is probably a minor factor.

Really? Last week the MSM was using words like "shocking images" showing regular folks walking on a boardwalk wothout masks on. 

6/3/20 11:46 AM
8/20/02
Posts: 14336

All the rioting will prove what we all knew all along, that this was media hyped horseshit from day one. 

6/3/20 11:54 AM
10/23/05
Posts: 3802
Al Cappucino - 
mataleo1 -
akbar87 - 

well i guess social distancing is out the window 

 

time to see how bad the virus really is after all these mass gatherings 


Right.

Although transmission in open spaces (compared to closed ones) is probably a minor factor.

Really? Last week the MSM was using words like "shocking images" showing regular folks walking on a boardwalk wothout masks on. 


Media is not what I use for reliable sources, regardless of the message.

Studies (including from The New England Journal of Medicine) suggest that using masks outside health care facilities (and especially outside in public places) probably has a minor effect in limiting transmission. The contact needs to be sustained for a few minutes (and esp in closed spaces). This was something that we suspected for a while.

6/3/20 11:58 AM
10/23/05
Posts: 3803
NoNeed4aScreenName - 

Thoughts?

 


Yep, many issues coming out. Will comment more later.

Edited: 6/3/20 12:24 PM
1/12/07
Posts: 20216
mataleo1 -
NoNeed4aScreenName - 

Thoughts?

 


Yep, many issues coming out. Will comment more later.

*REMOVED*

I was being not very nice.

Edited: 6/3/20 12:07 PM
2/4/09
Posts: 12106
SpunQ -
mataleo1 -
NoNeed4aScreenName - 

Thoughts?

 


Yep, many issues coming out. Will comment more later.

see why I called you a shill? not a good look is it especially when you're suppose to be a doctor. Shameful.

Hes been pretty straightforward and everything he says I've actually seen at our hospital. 

 

Hes not bullshitting. 

 

Only difference is the level of the outbreak in our area. 

 

We got lucky 

6/3/20 12:12 PM
1/12/07
Posts: 20217
NoNeed4aScreenName -
SpunQ -
mataleo1 -
NoNeed4aScreenName - 

Thoughts?

 


Yep, many issues coming out. Will comment more later.

see why I called you a shill? not a good look is it especially when you're suppose to be a doctor. Shameful.

Hes been pretty straightforward and everything he says I've actually seen at our hospital. 

 

Hes not bullshitting. 

 

Only difference is the level of the outbreak in our area. 

 

We got lucky 

Maybe I am being overzealous. 

6/3/20 12:14 PM
10/23/05
Posts: 3805
SpunQ - 
mataleo1 -
NoNeed4aScreenName - 

Thoughts?

 


Yep, many issues coming out. Will comment more later.

see why I called you a shill? not a good look is it especially when you're suppose to be a doctor. Shameful.


Seriously dude: fuck off.

I didn't want to give a 2-line answer.

Because I'm not a biased conspiracy loon like you are, I can criticize a study, regardless of its conclusions. This study has plenty of limitations and questionable methodology. Just like those that you like to quote showing a positive effect for HCQ.

Your clear incompetence regarding basic science, epidemiology, and medicines mixed with your claimed arrogance that you understand any of it is what's shameful.

Go spam elsewhere.



Edited: 6/3/20 12:23 PM
1/12/07
Posts: 20219
mataleo1 -
SpunQ - 
mataleo1 -
NoNeed4aScreenName - 

Thoughts?

 


Yep, many issues coming out. Will comment more later.

see why I called you a shill? not a good look is it especially when you're suppose to be a doctor. Shameful.


Seriously dude: fuck off.

I didn't want to give a 2-line answer.

Because I'm not a biased conspiracy loon like you are, I can criticize a study, regardless of its conclusions. This study has plenty of limitations and questionable methodology. Just like those that you like to quote showing a positive effect for HCQ.

Your clear incompetence regarding basic science, epidemiology, and medicines mixed with your claimed arrogance that you understand any of it is what's shameful.

Go spam elsewhere.


 

 

You have merit but don't forget me :)


EDIT: I want to apologise at least for making you curse, I don't feel too proud about that so sorry.

6/3/20 12:22 PM
4/3/08
Posts: 8309

And not a single fuck was given any longer 

29 days ago
11/23/10
Posts: 270
NoNeed4aScreenName -

Thoughts?

 

Speaking of weak peer-review: Holy shit that stinks!

When you read the paper’s description of the method for collecting data it is just a vague, buzz-word-heavy infomercial for Surgisphere. And the quotes from the guardian article about how they use AI and machine learning to gather data for the database makes no sense.

From my experience and pwrspective, extracting healthcare data in the way they describe would be impossible from the European Union (due to GDPR-laws you simply can’t export private information like individual EHR to a database outside of the EU, even if it is just snippets without immediately identifiable information). Maybe if they had a dedicated server within the EU for analyzing EU data, but even then GDPR is a legal nightmare with regards to sharing data from one place to another - it would take many months to get any legal department to sign off on such a thing. And that’s assuming the hospitals would have the legal paperwork in order to have consent to share the information in the first place (and would want to). All in all it just seems extremely unlikely for them to have managed to include the 50.000 patients from Europe which they claim.

I hadn’t read much into that part of the study’s methodology at first - mostly because I trusted that the peer-reviewers would have checked on such a fundamental thing.

Anyway, these observational studies are not the right study design to answer the question in the first place. The RCTs are beginning to come out. I’m not sure I completely agree with the conclusion (the study is underpowered), but it shows nothing convincing in favor of HCQ, even in the prophylaxis scenario:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638

29 days ago
4/22/17
Posts: 4584
Beninger -

And not a single fuck was given any longer 

I guess that's why this got unstickied. Racism is apparently more of a threat. Who knew?

29 days ago
2/25/09
Posts: 8016

So covid is cured now overnight? Just like that ny has zero cases rofl

Edited: 29 days ago
2/25/09
Posts: 8017
Akkadian88 -
Beninger -

And not a single fuck was given any longer 

I guess that's why this got unstickied. Racism is apparently more of a threat. Who knew?

Really? 100,000 deaths from from covid vs 9 unarmed black slayings all year? Racism is the threat.?
 

thats a narrative for you. Jist like covid the reaction is much larger than the actual perceived danger. 

29 days ago
1/12/07
Posts: 20373

 

Hey doc ,. your from NYC. What's this about then?

28 days ago
10/23/05
Posts: 3807
NoNeed4aScreenName - 

Thoughts?

 


Yup, that was shameful.

To respond to Job Security, peer-review isn't supposed to uncover fraud, but the Lancet editors failed on their job there. The authors just dug their own grave.

Many reasons why this happened. I know many claim a political scheme here but there are more likely reasons, the usuals being money (ties to Gilead) or career advancement (lancet is a top 10 journal and many academics know that the due process for acceptance is not enforced).

Honestly, almost all studies that came out reek heavily of shit. i'm with Job here: RCTs are coming out and they will give us the answers we want.

The one from NEJM regarding prophylaxis is a good start.

28 days ago
2/4/09
Posts: 12161
mataleo1 -
NoNeed4aScreenName - 

Thoughts?

 


Yup, that was shameful.

To respond to Job Security, peer-review isn't supposed to uncover fraud, but the Lancet editors failed on their job there. The authors just dug their own grave.

Many reasons why this happened. I know many claim a political scheme here but there are more likely reasons, the usuals being money (ties to Gilead) or career advancement (lancet is a top 10 journal and many academics know that the due process for acceptance is not enforced).

Honestly, almost all studies that came out reek heavily of shit. i'm with Job here: RCTs are coming out and they will give us the answers we want.

The one from NEJM regarding prophylaxis is a good start.

Its unfortunate that funding can have a direct impact of the outcome of a study. 

 

I'm looking forward to when finding and such isnt such a centralized issue. 

 

Maybe one day people can support studies they want an answer to through donations and can accept the outcomes of the study. 

 

I post in many political threads but I agree that politics is fucking up the world 

28 days ago
10/23/05
Posts: 3808
SpunQ - 

 

Hey doc ,. your from NYC. What's this about then?


Here are the daily deaths in NYC for 2 months now:

590 on April 7th
438 on April 15th
308 April 21st
202 May 1st
99 May 9th
74 May 16th
38 May 27th
11 June 1st

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page

That this is now 0 isn't particularly surprising: time of death usually happens 2-3 weeks after infection.

If cases increase in 1-2 weeks, then we'll know why. If they don't, it'll tell us that transmission from open spaces (as we've suspected) isn't a major concern.

28 days ago
2/4/09
Posts: 12162
mataleo1 -
SpunQ - 

 

Hey doc ,. your from NYC. What's this about then?


Here are the daily deaths in NYC for 2 months now:

590 on April 7th
438 on April 15th
308 April 21st
202 May 1st
99 May 9th
74 May 16th
38 May 27th
11 June 1st

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page

That this is now 0 isn't particularly surprising: time of death usually happens 2-3 weeks after infection.

If cases increase in 1-2 weeks, then we'll know why. If they don't, it'll tell us that transmission from open spaces (as we've suspected) isn't a major concern.

Litmus test.

 

If this doesnt create new outbreaks then even half assing a mask can protect most. Maybe we can consider opening up